Dragon Age Central

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 23:15 (GMT) by DLC On The Disc

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 15:05 (GMT) by Fernando Melo
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These are the main quest givers for their respective DLC, first and foremost. Regardless of how you get the DLC (or not), you will still be encountering Felix to begin your quest for Shale, or Levi to start the Warden's Keep quest for example - that *is* their role.
<snip>

I understand that you have to toe the company line, and that means denying every claim that these are intrusive advertisements for DLC, but you and I both know that they are.

I don't need to quote a company line to disagree - these are neither intrusive, nor advertisements. If you actually read my original post you'd see that as well. And I would argue that until you've played the game and talked to one of these NPCs, that you are claiming something you do not know of.

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 23:15 (GMT) by DLC On The Disc
If these NPCs were important to the basic DAO experience, they would be included in the shipped game and/or any patches without starting a questline for the DLC, maybe delivering some interesting dialogue without hinting at a quest before purchasing said DLC.

If these NPCs were not important to the basic DAO experience, then there would be no reason to include them in the shipped game and/or patches, and to only add them after the player purchases the DLC.

You can put a pig in a dress, but at the end of the day it's still a pig. These are still pitchmen, and I'm not happy about them being in the game.

Again, you've not really read what I posted last time. These are not part of the basic DAO experience, none of the DLC is. You get a complete game without ever touching any of the DLC.

These are quest givers, and work the same, and have the same importance as any other quest giver in DAO once they come in.

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 23:15 (GMT) by DLC On The Disc
So on Tuesday, when I buy my new copy of DAO, I'll pick up an MS points card, I'll put the disc in my 360, and I'll purchase the Warden's Keep, simply because I don't want salesmen in my game unless I can pay them in DAO currency. From then on, I'll make sure to keep my 360 off of LIVE whenever I'm playing DAO. Sure, it'll take an extra bit of work, but it'll be worth it to play the game the way I want to: without intrusive advertisement.

I'll buy DLC on my schedule, not yours. If that means playing an outdated version of DAO then so be it.

I appreciate you picking up WK, I hope you enjoy it and let us know what you think.

I've never argued for anyone to buy DLC on any schedule but theirs. If anything i've always encouraged folks to sit it out and read the reviews and forum posts if they are at all unsure. That is not what doing any of this is about.

And as above - if you re-read my original post, you'll notice that you'll still encounter these NPCs because they are the starting point for these quests, not salesmen for it.

Quote: Posted 11/01/09 00:18 (GMT) by Kasrkin
DLC available from the startup menu in the game makes sense.

Having NPC's in the game, hawking Downloadable Content for *Real Money* seems crass to me. Just not in the spirit of an RPG.

I agree. And that's why that is not what they do. You'll not find these NPCs ever quote you a price, or 'push' any of the content on you, or promote you special offers, or anything of that sort.

Quote: Posted 11/01/09 01:22 (GMT) by Akka le Vil
The problem isn't being advertised for things that won't come before monthes, the problem is being advertised at all

I hear you, and I understand why 'in principle' that puts some folks off - I too, do not want in-game ads. What I'm trying to get at is that I do not believe the way we've done it is advertising something in the way you believe it is - hence, it should be seen first.

Quote: Posted 11/01/09 01:22 (GMT) by Akka le Vil
I can undersand your point of view, but what I can't understand is that, as you know that it can displease lots of people, and you even know this enough to provide instructions to disable this...
<snip>
Seems the most obvious solution to me. Why the forceful approach ?
<snip>
though I understand what you're trying to achieve, I don't see why it couldn't be handled with a simple DLC tab in the option menu, that would have worked just as well and wouldn't have caused all this argument.

I never said it would displease lots of people, I said that it may not be for everyone - same as some of the social things we're doing, or achievements, or day 1 dlc, or pick any number of 'up in arms' topics we've talked about over the years that we recognized may not be for everyone but did anyway because we believed was right for the game.

If anything, I've said that I believe the majority will be pleased, otherwise we wouldn't have gone the way we did for any of those things.

As for it being obvious to offer up a solution - or implying that by not doing so we've opted for a forceful approach - not so, and given how open we've been about all this that's a bit of a stretch.

Like many other discussions so far, it would have been much simpler to ignore the forums or say 'deal with it' - in the end, it probably would work out just the same. That doesn't make it right, nor it is how we do things.

In the time available, we added options for what we believed people would want. And a commitment to evolve things over time for those that we did not, or opted to get player feedback on after launch. If we were second-guessing all our decisions on DAO it would be another 5 years in the making.

Quote: Posted 11/01/09 12:29 (GMT) by aries1001
But the problem for some of us is still this: (as I understand it)

DLC will be delivered onto our computers, without our consent, via the DA downloader. And then a quest giver for the DLC will show up in the game world with an regular quest icon (the exclamation mark!)above their head; when we speak to him, we'd learned, not up front, but later that 'to go on this ride, you'd need to pay XX amount of US dollars'.

You will have consented to it as part of the agreements when installing the game etc. And no NPC will ask you to pay xx of real world money, they are not salespeople.

But in these specific cases, given their DLC nature, to travel to that area you will need to have downloaded it - so there is an option to go and do that if you have not done so up to that point. That's it.

Whether the content download is then paid or free is irrelevant, and the quest giver doesn't care nor ever reflect that.

Quote: Posted 11/01/09 12:29 (GMT) by aries1001
To me, this sound much like, and functions much like a commercial on tv, enticing you, luring you in - with the hope that you'd buy the -ehm- product, which in this case is,- the dlc.

Perhaps, without seeing it. If it matters, I can say that we've spent a great deal of time making sure it was not the case - again, I don't know how else to try and describe that here in text. Once you talk to one of these then let us know if you still feel that way.

Quote: Posted 11/01/09 12:29 (GMT) by aries1001
As for being online to play the game, DA: Origins, I don't think you have to to be? - especially since Derek French in a post clearly stated this. I don't think you'd have to be online to play the DLC as well? The DLC, I'd guess, would just be downloaded onto your computer (once you've accepted it); you can then play it.

Correct. You only need to go online to download the DLC. Afterwards you can be offline.

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 18:40 (GMT) by TalarWolf
I'm not enthused about the npcs; even less about having additional stuff added without my knowing about it. If you read the ToS and the other legal type documents, by using EA's service you're agreeing to allow them to collect information about you, your playing habits, and a lot of other things.

I think you'll find this is common for any online service - have you ever looked at the 360 or PS3 account TOS? Random web email service? Other software that uses online features of some kind?

The good news with most games is that these are fairly blanket clauses and majority are actually not used for any given title. Having 1 common agreement to maintain across whatever languages all your past/present/future games support is much easier for any publisher to do, than trying to keep track of each one separately

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 18:40 (GMT) by TalarWolf
I'm still not sure whether I'm going to get the game or not; I've seen a few statements about having to be online when playing your dlc, and having to log in every 10 to 15 days to prove you aren't a pirate. It would be nice to have a faq about the different ways to get the dlc. If it is the same as the dlc for Fallout 3, you have to be online to play. If you were on pc, you could move files around and play offline, but that wasn't exactly supported. If I wanted to have to be online all the time I'm playing a game, I'd be playing an online game. If any of the content has to come through the EA downloader, it will make my decision much easier.

You don't need to be online to play DLC. We have our own DLC updater that is included with the game so you don't need to install anything separately, and don't use the EA Downloader - you'll only need that if you purchase DA:O through the EA Store.

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 18:43 (GMT) by Akka le Vil
I get what you mean by "not incomplete quests". But they still talk and offer a quest that you can't take unless you buy the DLC.
That's not "incomplete" in the "left in the middle of a chain quest" way, but that's still "incomplete" - they ARE present and they DO offer a quest that still REQUIRE something to be bought.

I get what you're saying, I just think we're actually seeing two ends of the same very very narrow spectrum.

These NPCs don't show up to advertise or tease content coming months from now. They are there once the DLC is available.

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 18:43 (GMT) by Akka le Vil
I understand your point, but it strikes me as quite weird.
DA:O was clamored (and applauded !) as being a pure single-player game in a somewhat "old school" way (thank you for this by the way, I was sooo wishing for such a kind of game !), as in "spiritual successor of the good RPG of old".
Following this, using MMO methods, which exist on a completely different server-based multiplayer architecture, feels completely at odd with what DAO looks like.

DAO is definitely that - and for us the spiritual successor element means some very specific things, mostly around story, characters, tactical party based combat, etc. It doesn't mean we'll be delivering it on 5.25" floppy discs, nor ignoring where PC gaming and technology is at today or tomorrow.

DAO has a huge social and community element to it, and a task of seamlessly being able to expand that world. The fact that didn't exist with old school rpgs is hardly a reason to not evolve.

And wanting to evolve, why would we not look at the most widely used and successful examples we could find?

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 18:43 (GMT) by Akka le Vil
I understand the MMO methods used for MMO. I even spent four years and a half of on WoW, so I'm not that allergic to the system
But the MMO methods used for single-player is really not going to compute for me. MMO have to enforce patching, because everyone is playing the same game on the same servers, and you can't really have people with different versions playing together.
But that's purely an exception for a specific requirement. I do not want (and I'm sure I'm far to be the only one on this issue) to have a program that automatically download and update without asking my consent each time. Sometimes I want the updates (most patches - not all, some patches actually ruin the game, like the 1.3 for Empire : Total War), and sometimes I don't want them (like the DLC NPC we're talking about - if I don't plan to buy the DLC myself, I certainly do NOT want the game to download the hooks and baits for them).
I stay away from Steam precisely BECAUSE of their automated updates.
And honestly, I'm not thrilled at all hearing that Steam & MMO are the way you're planning to go when it comes to updates.

We shouldn't confuse the content with the method of delivery. Bad patches can happen regardless of the method.

As for doing content updates like that in general - given the success (and market leadership) of those services on PC, I think there are a few million players that would disagree. That doesn't mean we should simply be content to point our finger there and say 'they do it' - as I mentioned before, I fully intend to adapt what we do based on our player's feedback. But as our starting point, I'm very pleased if we are able to be at, or close to par.

Having said that, we did not presume everyone would want this. We've made sure there are instructions provided for how to disable this if you want. And post launch, we will continue to improve it based on feedback.

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 18:43 (GMT) by Akka le Vil
Well, the point here is that many of us precisely do NOT want to use this approach.
The main point, as you surely have read it countless time in the thread, is that a NPC being hooks for quest you have to pay for, is perceived as a very rude and unwelcomed intrusion of marketing/salesmen - the fact that they speak in-character is not the point, the point is that we ("we" as in "those who protest" of course) would like for them to simply not appear unless we have bought and downloaded the content they are related to.

I understand that, my point is that I don't believe that is the majority's view - especially after trying it. I think what we're offering as a way to expand the game without you ever having to leave it is something a lot of our players will appreciate.

Again, not for everyone perhaps. But I happen to believe that there are more people annoyed by having to take extra steps, go and fish on the internet for something, create a dozen other accounts for the priveledge of downloading from other sites, figure out what version of what they need, and generally spend more time trying to get content than playing it - than there are folks who are not bothered by (or prefer) that.

I fully accept that is a very non-old school way of doing things too But even in those cases, there will hopefully always be options for those folks too. And in any case, everything we're talking about is extra - anyone is more than able to get their money's worth from playing the main game and simply getting rid of any of this.

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 18:52 (GMT) by Pr1m4x

Its amazing how people think that the slap on the face is an npc in the game, and everyone is just so much of a freaking fan boy that they don't realize how screwed up it is, that their selling additional content when it should be included in the original pack. You dont sell DLCs on day one to "give players more content and make them happy" you do that *** to rip people off, and its as simple as that. I dont mind paying for 10 DLCs, but doing it on release day? Its just an insult to any normal person's intelligence. I wont be "buying" the game for this reason alone. That is all im saying...

If you actually care to hear about it - there are plenty of posts on social (social.bioware.com) and these old forums (daforums.bioware.com) made by us to clearly explain why this was done.

Edited By Fernando Melo on 10/31/09 19:52

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 15:49 (GMT) by Akka le Vil
That's the first point that upset many people : they do not want to have NPC related to non-already-included content in the game. It feels like intrusive advertisement, and it makes the game feels incomplete (not because the game itself, as per launch, is incomplete, but because these guys have quests that can be completed only through buying DLC, hence once they are added in the game, the game include incomplete quests).

We've posted quite a few times about how we plan to continue to grow DA - viewing DA:O as a platform. DLC, and in general making the expansion of that world as seamless as possible, is one of our goals.

But at the risk of going around in circles, folks really should see this before hand so we're all comparing and talking apples to apples.

My impression of the majority of the negative responses seem to be based on taking a description of a simple thing and without having seen it, proceed to blowing it out into proportions that play off of fears of the worst kind.

I'm not trying to stall - I really want feedback from players on this. But these reactions on the forums are something we've seen time and time again, for almost any feature or change throughout the dev cycle - ultimately, most of these were laid to rest once people saw how it really worked within the game context. That's why I'm suggesting the pause and to look at this within the game in a couple days.

For what it is worth - the game doesn't get incomplete quests. It's not like you are half-way through something and get a credit card entry screen to continue. The NPCs don't chase you around, and they are not salesmen with lines geared at 'pushing' any of the content at you. They are quest giver NPCs, and will act as you will expect any DA quest giver NPC.

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 15:49 (GMT) by Akka le Vil
That's the second part which is annoying : there is content that is automatically added to the game without us giving our consent. This is, very understandably, antagonizing many people.
I think you should give the choice to accept or refuse this download - honestly, I even have a hard time believing that installing something on a computer without asking was even considered, and even more, included in the actual game

You are. This is handled no different than any other game out there. For software, when you install something, or create an online account, or purchase something you should be presented with some sort of agreement that is appropriate for your locale. Like many other things folks may disagree and argue it is not done in a way that they personally would prefer it in, but it is there.

As for the general concept of getting content updates - we looked at the best examples we could find for deciding how we wanted to handle content updates for PC: Steam & MMOs. And tried to keep it in line with that.


As I've said before, I'm happy for us to adapt and change our approach - but that needs to be based on players actually using it if it is to be accurate.

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 15:39 (GMT) by LanceX2

no console creater??? so we only have presets for our PC's???

Sorry, should have been clearer. There is no stand alone character creator app like we released for the PC. The main game has the full character creation process.

There's no console character creator.

But the main game on 360 & PS3 have the option to upload your character data to social.

Not only will you see your face (which you can also use as your avatar on social), but also your story through the game, achievements, etc. (more than the stand alone character creator PC)

Thanks for all the feedback so far folks! It is something we're anxious to hear more from you on after launch.

Please make sure you continue this on the social site and let us know your thoughts after you've encountered them. I'd also recommend taking advantage of some of the site's new features like polls as maybe a good way to consolidate the top suggestions for what you'd like to see.

Specific to DLC quest givers - The intent is very much to keep the game immersion and consistency. These are the main quest givers for their respective DLC, first and foremost. Regardless of how you get the DLC (or not), you will still be encountering Felix to begin your quest for Shale, or Levi to start the Warden's Keep quest for example - that *is* their role.

As with any major quest giver they are relatively significant characters in the game world in their own right. The fact they are added after launch should not be used to confuse that - it is not acceptable for us, for example, if you would see a noticeable difference in quality, production value, game mechanics, etc as you experience DLC.

The only 'salesmanship' involved is what you saw Nathan post - which is basically there if you have not already downloaded the DLC up to the point you encounter the NPC, then they have a line in their dialog that directs you to do so.

By their nature as main quest givers, they give you a lot more information, context and flavor about the DLC or the quest you're about to embark on - certainly more than you'd ever get from just the simple text & icon description in the DLC store on any platform.

We considered this additional info to be a good thing to help you make a more informed decision on DLC, so opted to make that portion of the DLC free and available up front and separate it from the rest of the DLC quest. And yes, by doing so we also hope more players will want to try the DLC.

When there is new DLC available on the servers the game downloads the package of info - which includes the basic icon & text description to show on the in-game DLC store off the main menu, similar info for the in-game journal DLC section, as well as any additional content like this if there is DLC that makes use of that in-game - not all will, and not all will be NPCs. In fact you already have many more examples of DLC that does not have these NPCs, such as all the other retailer and promo items like Blood Dragon Armor.

Not initially. This is something that was rolled out a bit too late for us. Probably also why you haven't seen a lot of this with recent games - expect that to change with titles launching closer to Xmas and beyond.

For DA:O, it is something we'd like to add if we do a title update in the future - but no promises. Love the idea, wish we could have added it in time, but we have a lot of other cool things we want to do too

To be clear, we plan to roll out Avatar items. But this reward mechanism where you can unlock Avatar items through gameplay we weren't able to add to DA:O in time.

Edited By Fernando Melo on 10/23/09 06:23

This went up on Inside Xbox in Europe first. I'm guessing those that can see it are in that region.

Should be up in NA region soon.

It has certainly been interesting to hear all the feedback on this. I mean that in the best of ways to be clear - it is good for us to hear your thoughts as always, and why we frequent these boards.

I'll try to recap the couple of points that keep coming up on this, and try to re-iterate some of what we've been saying...

Why is day 1 DLC not on the disc:
- Think of it this way... forget it was DLC we were making, and pretend it was a web page.

We could continue to work on that right up to game launch day and still have it ready for "day 1". But there would never ever have been a way to get that web page done back in time to make it for the dates for disc, or even the digital versions of the game, which needed to be locked many weeks (or months in some cases) in advance of game launch.

- DLC works on a relatively shorter dev cycle (months, instead of years), and the nature of it being downloadable means there are not the same lengthy lead times to get discs made and out to warehouses for retail shelves. Also, given most DLC is measured in single digit hours it is much quicker to test, the number of issues you find are lower volume which also makes for quicker turnaround of fixes, and even getting through console certification is quicker.

- That combined with the game delay from March to Nov meant we effectively caught up to the launch date. But there would still have been no way to ever get that DLC on to the discs or digi versions - it just was not ready in that kind of timeframe.

- On a similar vein, this is also the same reason why the content was not 'ripped out' at the last minute to make a quick buck. The game content was locked for the disc/digital versions, and taking something out can introduce just as many issues.


Perhaps the more relevant question is - why still choose to launch it day 1 then?

There are a lot of good reasons for this, otherwise we wouldn't have done it. Suffice it to say that it was not a decision made lightly, but I still believe it is the right one for DA even if it means taking a few lumps in the meantime for it.

For the sake of brevity, let me reverse the question. Why delay it?

Sure, the easy thing would have been to artificially just sit on the release of these for a few weeks. But then, what would be the right time? 1 week? 2, 4, 6? More importantly, and honestly now - what would have been the benefit for fans that might want DLC in doing this?

Lastly, and this is my own personal view. The day after the game launches a lot of this will largely go away as the concept of 'it came out day 1 or not' becomes less of a stigma.

The only thing that will matter is whether it was good DLC, or bad DLC.

As always if you have doubts, wait it out - you have a massive game ahead of you before you should ever feel like you "need" to dive into DLC, regardless of how compulsive you may think you are.

Listen to other forum posters' reviews. Listen to public reviews elsewhere on the net. Review the content descriptions, screenshots, and videos we'll continue to post on our sites.

That is already a lot more information than you typically will see with most DLC. And in the end, if you still do not feel it is right for you - tell us why, I'd appreciate that just as much as your feedback if you played it.

But know that you will not be missing any part of the DA:O story because of this. The game will not be less playable, or less fun, or less of an epic RPG because of this.

If you play FPS games but don't like MP, are you really going to feel like you 'missed out' or got an incomplete experience because a MP map pack DLC came out?? Really?

Edited By Fernando Melo on 10/23/09 05:39

Keep posting folks.

There are not a lot of replies as things are still busy as we're gearing up to launch the game on all platforms - however, know that there are folks already compiling the info posted here and on social, and going through it.

Please keep in mind that Character Creator was literally ripped out of the main game and cobbled together fairly last minute (and all while trying to hit our main game milestones).

Much like the social site in its current state, it should be treated as an early or beta app.

We really appreciate your patience if you're encountering some issues, and your help so far by posting your findings.

Allchaos + Kitsuneonna:

Quote: Posted 10/14/09 08:42 (GMT) by Kitsuneonna
Well when opening the program there is four buttons I can click on. Play, Website, Uninstall and exit. When clicking on Play it goes to a picture then goes to a maximze screen then a few seconds later it says to me Dragon age has stop working looking for a solution but doesn't find any.

Ack - definitely need to look at this in the AM, it looks like the launcher included is trying to run the actual DA game, which was most definitely not included in the 300Mb C.Creator app

Try launching the c.creator exe directly.

Quote: Posted 10/14/09 08:26 (GMT) by Ryllen Laerth Kriel
P.S. With this bug on the tattoo for Dalish elves, can we edit it off our saved characters when we get the actual game later?

I think I saw earlier on the thread that if you do a save (or upload) at the end of creation that it is correct. The issue appeared to be only when you try to go backwards. We'll look at it.

Quote: Posted 10/14/09 08:35 (GMT) by Inhuman one

Fernando, do you know anything about how I could fix the problem I explained on the previous page with the NSIS error?

Quote: Posted 10/14/09 08:00 (GMT) by Inhuman one

The character creator doesnt start at all, I will post the full error description here.

NSIS Error

Installer integrity check has failed. Common causes include
incomplete download and damaged media. Contact the
installer's author to obtain a new copy.

More information at:
http://nsis.sf.net/NSIS_Error


What should I do?

Missed that - looking at the error ... "Common causes include
incomplete download .." is it possible the d/l didn't complete correctly? I'd try re-d/l and see if that resolves it. Are you getting it from us or an external link?

Quote: Posted 10/14/09 08:22 (GMT) by Kitsuneonna

Fernando Melo

Do you have any information on the problem with the creation itself? I myself and some others have a problem when trying to use it. When I push play the game acts like it's going to load then says error and says windows has encountered and error. I can't get it to work at all. It works on my laptop but not my PC which is way way better. Please help if you can. I rather have you say you don't know how to fix the problem then skiping the question.

Not off-hand, I'll need to check on this once at work. Where are you seeing the 'play' button though?

Quote: Posted 10/14/09 08:18 (GMT) by Ryllen Laerth Kriel
...
when I saved the character and went back to the Edit/Delete character profile screen, they gave my character a facial tattoo!

Looking at the other posts on the thread there appears to be a bug where some of the face options can be reset back to the default - in this case the Dalish have a tattoo by default, for others they are losing their beards, etc.

Quote: Posted 10/14/09 08:18 (GMT) by Darke1
Can you only upload your first character created to the social site profile?

I have created four characters and uploaded them while logged in, yet ONLY the first one is on the social site.

Is this an issue or am i missing something obvious?

There's a time delay for data to show up on social. Your other characters will get there too.

Quote: Posted 10/14/09 08:05 (GMT) by TheTraveler

Ok, thanks Fernando!

I have linked the accounts and now it states the my Bio forum account is my Primary Account (if I understood it correctly), so when I log in through the DA game, to these forums or to the Social Site, I use this display name (TheTraveler) and its password, no?

A little less confused

Almost From within CCreator you'll always need the email/pwd and never the display name. From social you can use either.

I think the primary account part has to do with the fact that with these forums we're in now you can have multiple BioWare forum accounts/Display names tied to the same email - such as an alter ego account for the ME or NWN forums - and in social you can link up those multiple BW forum accounts/display names and roll them all up into your one social acct. In that case, the first BW account is the default one displayed in social, or your 'primary'.

Sorry if that is adding to the confusion