Dragon Age: Thread View

Quote: Posted 10/25/09 14:22 (GMT) by SteveStubborn
You ppl defending this kind of marketing, just stop. We've payed for a product and shouldn't have to endure ANY form of commercial messages in the actual game. It's like going to the movies and get a commercial break in the actual movie. It is wrong. Please don't try to deny that.

I'll point out that the in-game "offer", as it were, doesn't use out-of-game language. You are offered a quest, or a journal entry, the same way that you would get any other quest. No turning to the camera and offering you a delicious Coke or anything of the like. If you accept, you are briefly taken to the DLC page to grab the content -- if you have not already done so. If you have, you won't even notice the difference. It will also be a simple enough matter to refuse the quest -- you don't have to endure a commercial.

Picturing scenarios where there are in-game neon billboards and NPC Shamwow salesmen trying to lure you conveniently into spending more money, and then railing against it, is a bit over the top. (It's the internet, though, right? Who'd have thought?)

Although I do like the idea of the Shamwow guy as a pushy dwarven merchant, now. Hmm. I'll have to make a note of that.

It's a way to insert the DLC into the overall game, nothing more. If you don't like the idea even of that interface (I suppose some people are going to object to the notion of DLC daring to sully their gaming experience no matter what), then that's up to you -- but at least get it straight what you are objecting to.

---

Oh, and incidentally: please leave the personal insults out of this, on both sides of the argument. Thanks.

If you really don't like the idea, then fair enough -- although I would recommend actually experiencing it in the game before you make claims about how jarring you'll find it.

Beyond that, if you really don't like the idea then by all means don't purchase the DLC. There is a whole giant game still to play which doesn't require any additional purchase, after all, and the number of these things you'll encounter overall is pretty small. If you're worried about the "slippery slope", as it were, by all means register your disapproval. There's a DLC team headed by Fernando Melo which will no doubt be looking for feedback, and I doubt they're above adjusting the approach if they feel it's called for. I also doubt they'd simply remove it outright just because some people don't like it (especially prior to anyone actually trying it), but if concerns are communicated intelligently and politely it's possible that at least some of them could be addressed.

If you haven't noticed, I'm not really the person to talk about this stuff. It's pretty far removed from my bailiwick, after all. But reasoned discussion, even when it's something you don't like, never goes amiss. So I'll leave you to it.

The argument that the game will be in any way incomplete (which was expressed as a concern on this thread, as well as in other DLC discussions unrelated to integrated DLC) is just wrong. This game contains 2-3 times more content than the average video game released today, for the same price. Just concluding from the fact that the game HAS downloadable content on day 1, that it is incomplete is any way doesn't make any sense to me.

The other concern is that this may break immersion, but hopefully you'll agree that this is very subjective, and depends a lot on how it is presented in game. I've seen this feature and I really don't feel having 1 NPC out of hundrends available introducing you to a quest that you won't follow through if you don't own the DLC, is distracting to the overall experience at all. If you feel different after having seen this yourself, by all means do let us know why.

Can we all at least agree that this discussion is best suited to after the game has been released, when you've all seen how the feature is implemented and we can all talk specifics? That way you will be able to offer us constructive feedback, which isn't easy to to do at this stage. I realise everyone is very passionate about this subject and all you want is this game to be the best RPG experience possible - trust us, so do we

Edited By Andreas Papathanasis on 10/26/09 00:22

Quote: Posted 10/26/09 00:22 (GMT) by Ser Rune
I believe BioWare employees are invested and passionate about their jobs, probably one of the main reasons why they continue to deliver on great games. Since you are here, a quick question: will we have the option to turn off the in-game npc's?

I don't believe there is such an option in the current version. I'll confirm tomorrow and if I'm wrong I'll correct this.

Quote: Posted 10/26/09 00:31 (GMT) by crimzontearz
the idea Andreas is that WK is not just a separate module that beyond the scope of the quest has absolutely no repercussion on the game.

WK offers new skills and a "base camp storage" which color the entirety of the rest of the game just like Shale does

it is not far fetched to imagine that those who are buying the game, knowing this, would feel they are playing a less complete game without the extra skills and possibilities offered by warden keep.

one of your colleagues once compared WK to a new MP map for a shooter where indeed a more appropriate comparison is a whole new campaign level adding to the story AND a whole new class of weapons to play the entire rest of the game with.

I still think that the timing was just horrible, and beside that I'll just shut up before I end up pissing you off like I pissed off stanley

I'm sure Warden's Keep has some neat features, some which I saw when I played it for a few minutes. I didn't play far enough to get the additional storage thing, so I can't really talk about this in much detail. Though I will say that the first 2 times I finished the game I didn't have any of the DLC installed, and the game didn't feel incomplete at all.

We aren't answering this thread because... oh wait, we have, several times, and in several other discussions too.

Just to clarify, again (See David Gaider's post earlier in this thread that we haven't responded to), there are no advertisements, commercials, product placements, billboards or banners.

No Coke cans, no EA logos, no BMW symbols on the NPC's wagon, no visits from Homer Simpson, Mickey Mantle, Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck or Donald Sutherland.

There are no advertisements.

Here is the actual conversation that activates Shale, once you find Felix (who is a fully voiced NPC with a quest marker over his head, like every other quest NPC in the game):

(Taken from a testing tool that tracks the path we take through conversations, enjoy some debugging information ).

(Warning, wall of text alert, slight spoiler alert - skip to last line of the wall if you just want to see the "offending DLC offer").

shale100_felix.dlg STARTING_DIALOG: Starting on line 16
StringID_393009.___ STATEMENT (shl000cr_felix): Er... you'll have to forgive me if I seem a bit nervous. Not many people traveling in this part of Ferelden.
StringID_393010.___ STATEMENT (shl000cr_felix): Of course that's part of my problem, isn't it? Mule got spooked by a wisp and ran off into the woods. Now what do I do?
shale100_felix.dlg REPLY: Are you asking me to find your mule?
shale100_felix.dlg REPLY: Just what are you doing out here?
shale100_felix.dlg REPLY: "Part" of your problem?
shale100_felix.dlg CHOSE: Are you asking me to find your mule?
StringID_393012.___ STATEMENT (shl000cr_felix): Oh! No, no, I sent the elf to do that. I wouldn't dream of asking a stranger to do it...
StringID_393016.___ STATEMENT (shl000cr_felix): Allow me to introduce myself. Felix de Grosbois, merchant and entrepreneur, at your service.
shale100_felix.dlg REPLY: I am <Playername>. Pleased to meet you.
shale100_felix.dlg REPLY: I am one of the Grey Wardens.
shale100_felix.dlg REPLY: A merchant? Out here?
shale100_felix.dlg CHOSE: I am . Pleased to meet you.
StringID_393865.___ STATEMENT (shl000cr_felix): I don't normally take this route, but with the war I was hoping for a bit of luck and good weather in the mountains.
StringID_393866.___ STATEMENT (shl000cr_felix): Sadly, I've had neither. This trip has been one miserable disaster after another. I don't suppose you'd... consider helping a fellow out?
shale100_felix.dlg REPLY: What do you need?
shale100_felix.dlg REPLY: Help a fellow out... how?
shale100_felix.dlg REPLY: Do I look like I'm here to help?
shale100_felix.dlg CHOSE: What do you need?
StringID_393868.___ STATEMENT (shl000cr_felix): Of all the other things that went wrong, the worst is this artifact I bought in Jader.
StringID_393870.___ STATEMENT (shl000cr_felix): It's a "control rod," I'm told. For a golem. I can't even get to it, now, but perhaps you could. Maybe you'd... take it off my hands?
shale100_felix.dlg REPLY: What does a control rod do?
shale100_felix.dlg REPLY: What's the catch?
shale100_felix.dlg REPLY: How do I know this will even work?
shale100_felix.dlg REPLY: No, not interested.
shale100_felix.dlg REPLY: (Download Content) Let's take a look.


That last line shows up if you don't have it installed. If you have it installed, it just says "Let's take a look", and you continue the quest, like every other quest in the game.

If you don't have it installed, and chose that line, prompts you to log into your EA/DA account (or create one), then connects to the PRC website/system, where all the actual purchasing is handled.

If you don't want to access the content, say "No, not interested", and go on your way, just like any other quest you don't want to do.

You don't enter credit card credentials, there's no way for someone to get your credit card via their module, and no way for anyone to send you to their own "purchased content" or website unless they are integrating it into our data backend and EA is selling it for them. The game simply connects to the PRC backend, where the content is handled.

Quote: Posted 10/30/09 09:52 (GMT) by JackDresden

Quote: Posted 10/30/09 09:15 (GMT) by Nordrian

Quote: Posted 10/30/09 07:09 (GMT) by aberdash

The response from the community was overwhelming negative at yet they refuse to budge on the issue. Great job listening to the community bioware.

As for the "you haven't seen it ingame yet" argument, you don't have to drink cat piss to know you aren't going to like it.

"Once you will have experienced the game, feel free to give us your feedback, and we take it in consideration".

That was one of the official answers.
They don't refuse to change it, they just ask us to wait and see if it REALLY is that much of an annoyance.

Yawn, yes I see the error of our ways even now the dev has posted the text of the NPC conversation we still can't possibley comment until we've had that conversation in the game, honestly I'm tired of rejecting this totally silly reasoning.

To the Dev who posted.....so you've clarified that the last line in the conversation relveals the quest is DLC just before you take it. I take it that is supposed to refute the point that the rest of the conversation is a sales pitch disguised as part of the game we bought?

Still you haven't addressed how having that NPC and conversation that is the start of the DLC in the base product doesn't make the game incomplete.....The only point I've seen made is hay the games really big so how can anyone possibley consider it incomplete. Because you are putting in NPCs who start quests that aren't in the game I reply.....you reply nothing to that because the simple logic of the argument is hard to refute I take it.

There are currently, exactly, two of these people. One for Shale, and one for Soldier's Peak. They are inserted into the game by the DLC system. Future content may add more.

These NPCs aren't on the disk - they are added via the DA Downloader.

If you don't want them there, simply disable the downloader - we even tell you how to do this in the readme. You never see them, or any other DLC content, ever. You don't need to mod them out, hack the game, or any other drastic conspiracy measure to remove them. If you don't want them there, THEY ARENT THERE.

You'll never even notice that they are missing either - there's already more henchmen than you can utilize fully, and side quests you won't be able to do based on your class/origin, and some encounters that are simply incredibly low chances of happening.

Your logic is so full of holes that I could drain my spagetti with it.

Is your car incomplete if you don't buy the upgraded auto-dimming mirror, roof racks, or custom mudflaps? No - they're addons. The same is true with our DLC. They add features that don't come with the base package. I don't see you out boycotting the automotive industry, because you can get aftermarket upgrades.

DAPC was completed by the main team in March and was supposed to ship then, and was held for a simultaneous release with the console versions (next week).

The main team then moved onto getting the console versions ready.

The DLC team finished Shale after we finished the PC.
The DLC then finished Soldier's Peak after that point.
There is future content being worked on, and will be released in the future once it is finished.

I'm part of the main team, and have been since 2002. I haven't worked on any of the DLC... because it's not part of the game, and never has been. I've been through the game hundreds of times.

The game was designed without this content in it. We didn't take anything out to sell to you later.

However, you are going to refuse to believe that, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering.

The other argument I've seen you guys use is that "it was finished before you manufactured the discs, so you should have put it on".

Each team has a budget, and a profit line they have to meet. You don't get a copy of NBAX when you buy NFLX - they're made by the same studio, in the same building, and their content is based in the same Franchise World (reality). Each team has their own people, their own operating costs, and their own profit margin. This is a business - if a team doesn't make money, they don't exist anymore.


And I'll be brutally honest. The main reason why we have this "conspiracy of silence" as so many of you are calling it... is because there is pretty much nothing we can say that will change your mind.

I made my post to make it clear that we are not doing any "in-game advertising" - and by that, I mean there's no sponsorship, product placement, or immersion-killing neon signs or billboards. I wanted people to see exactly what it looked like, so they had the facts.

You believe what we did is wrong, evil and you hate it.

Answer me this - is there ANYTHING I could possibly say, which would make you change your mind.

I'm pretty sure the answer is "No".

And this is quite likely going to be my last post on the subject, because I'm well aware that you cannot change someone's beliefs - religious wars are fought because of this, and in the end, nobody ever wins.

Each side still believes what they believe.

Quote: Posted 10/30/09 16:36 (GMT) by Akka le Vil

Quote: Posted 10/30/09 16:09 (GMT) by Nathan Frederick

There are currently, exactly, two of these people. One for Shale, and one for Soldier's Peak. They are inserted into the game by the DLC system. Future content may add more.

These NPCs aren't on the disk - they are added via the DA Downloader.

If you don't want them there, simply disable the downloader - we even tell you how to do this in the readme.

Is the regular patching of the game using the same downloader, or does it use something else (in other words : does disabling the DA Downloader will prevent us from getting patches for possible bugs in the game, or are they unrelated ?).

Quote: You never see them, or any other DLC content, ever. You don't need to mod them out, hack the game, or any other drastic conspiracy measure to remove them. If you don't want them there, THEY ARENT THERE.

What if I see one particular DLC I like, and I wish to get it, but do not want to get the NPC from other DLC ? Is it possible to "selectively get" the related content of a specific DLC but not the others ?
(I do not try to make a loaded question or a trap or anything else here, just something I'm wondering ; I'd like to try Shale but I don't want to get WK, so I just wonder if I can get the former without the latter, or if I'll have to pass both)

Quote: The game was designed without this content in it. We didn't take anything out to sell to you later.

However, you are going to refuse to believe that, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering.

I'm not speaking about what the person you've quoted think, but I'll speak for those who share my opinion : we haven't said that something was removed from the game to be sold later (it's something some of us have said about what could possibly happen in the video game industry as a whole in the future, but it wasn't about DAO specifically).
The complaint was rather that, if the NPC are added, then a partially implemented questline is added to the game, but require payment to be completed - as such, after this addition, the game on our hard drive is incomplete.

I hope you can see the difference between both ; it's not said in order to upset you, it's said in order to explain you that this "partial addition" upset us

Quote: And I'll be brutally honest. The main reason why we have this "conspiracy of silence" as so many of you are calling it... is because there is pretty much nothing we can say that will change your mind.

I made my post to make it clear that we are not doing any "in-game advertising" - and by that, I mean there's no sponsorship, product placement, or immersion-killing neon signs or billboards. I wanted people to see exactly what it looked like, so they had the facts.

You believe what we did is wrong, evil and you hate it.

(quote)Answer me this - is there ANYTHING I could possibly say, which would make you change your mind.

I'm pretty sure the answer is "No".

And this is quite likely going to be my last post on the subject, because I'm well aware that you cannot change someone's beliefs - religious wars are fought because of this, and in the end, nobody ever wins.

Well, the part about religious wars is certainly a bit overdramatic, isn't it ?

And I'm afraid you've hit a bit aside the meat of the matter. It's not really a matter of "being convinced to change our mind". It's rather a matter of "these NPC are a mistake, because they make marketing and incomplete quests appear in the game".
You said it's not marketing. Well, people who see a quest they can start but require to buy a DLC to finish disagree. That's perceived as a bait for customers.
So it's not so much as "tell us something to convince us it's not something we don't like", and rather a "listen to us : it's something we don't like"

And be assured, despite our differences of opinion, it's still great (for me at least, but I'm pretty sure for most of us whatever our side of the argument) to have answers and discussion with the creative team.

Regarding the patch/downloader - somewhat complicated answer, which I cannot fully answer, so I'm not going to put my foot in my mouth and get it wrong by not knowing what I am talking about (patching is handled by a different team than mine, and I havent been involved with it much). Different delivery methods and different platforms also have differing requirements and patching methods, to further complicate my lack of detailed knowledge

Regarding a "partially complete" quest being added to yout game, I can see your point. DLC does at least show up it's their own Journal Entry Section, so you can keep it minimized, and never look at them.

My personal take on DLC (and I had nothing to do with the system, it wasn't my idea) - I'm lazy, and I'm really busy - if I have to go look for it, I'm not going to get it. I never got the Fallout 3 DLC, or any of the Oblivion stuff. I like the idea of having the content come to me (it's a huge part of why I like Steam - I dont have to go find games in stores anymore). But, not everyone does. That's the nature of opinions - they differ.

If you disable the downloader before the "offer" is on your machine, it will disable all offers. It is not a toggle, or selective, sorry. If you disable the DLC downloading mechanic, it's dead - no offers, no getting promo items, no purchasing content you do want.

And to be honest, the comment about the wars is a bit over-dramatic, I've had real-life conversations with some people about DLC, and it is completely accurate. It's not accurate for everyone, but for the people who are posting with such vehemence and conviction and twisting of intention... it probably is.

You however, put in a clear, concise (and rational) answer, so I'm responding .

As far as "not liking" something... I will say the same thing to you, that I have to my wife - a seriously picky eater. She doesn't like a lot of things that she has not seen, smelled, or, let alone tasted. She simply doesn't like the idea. You can't truly say you don't like something, unless you have tried it. I have managed to get her to try a few things over the years which she "did not like". Some, she indeed does not like (which makes her less willing to try other things on her list). Some are also now her favorite meals (the only reason she does try them).

You may not like the idea, but until you actually try it, you cannot say you do not like the system or the process.

Quote: Posted 10/30/09 17:23 (GMT) by Nicephorus

So, you couldn't get Shale without allowing some of these things which are totally not advertisement into your game?

Shale IS one of these things. That dialog I quoted, is how you start the quest to get her.

Hey, folks, can we keep the Philosophy 101 to a minimum? If you really must show off your book-learnin', take it to private. I'd like to keep this discussion on-topic. Thanks.

Thanks for all the feedback so far folks! It is something we're anxious to hear more from you on after launch.

Please make sure you continue this on the social site and let us know your thoughts after you've encountered them. I'd also recommend taking advantage of some of the site's new features like polls as maybe a good way to consolidate the top suggestions for what you'd like to see.

Specific to DLC quest givers - The intent is very much to keep the game immersion and consistency. These are the main quest givers for their respective DLC, first and foremost. Regardless of how you get the DLC (or not), you will still be encountering Felix to begin your quest for Shale, or Levi to start the Warden's Keep quest for example - that *is* their role.

As with any major quest giver they are relatively significant characters in the game world in their own right. The fact they are added after launch should not be used to confuse that - it is not acceptable for us, for example, if you would see a noticeable difference in quality, production value, game mechanics, etc as you experience DLC.

The only 'salesmanship' involved is what you saw Nathan post - which is basically there if you have not already downloaded the DLC up to the point you encounter the NPC, then they have a line in their dialog that directs you to do so.

By their nature as main quest givers, they give you a lot more information, context and flavor about the DLC or the quest you're about to embark on - certainly more than you'd ever get from just the simple text & icon description in the DLC store on any platform.

We considered this additional info to be a good thing to help you make a more informed decision on DLC, so opted to make that portion of the DLC free and available up front and separate it from the rest of the DLC quest. And yes, by doing so we also hope more players will want to try the DLC.

When there is new DLC available on the servers the game downloads the package of info - which includes the basic icon & text description to show on the in-game DLC store off the main menu, similar info for the in-game journal DLC section, as well as any additional content like this if there is DLC that makes use of that in-game - not all will, and not all will be NPCs. In fact you already have many more examples of DLC that does not have these NPCs, such as all the other retailer and promo items like Blood Dragon Armor.

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 15:49 (GMT) by Akka le Vil
That's the first point that upset many people : they do not want to have NPC related to non-already-included content in the game. It feels like intrusive advertisement, and it makes the game feels incomplete (not because the game itself, as per launch, is incomplete, but because these guys have quests that can be completed only through buying DLC, hence once they are added in the game, the game include incomplete quests).

We've posted quite a few times about how we plan to continue to grow DA - viewing DA:O as a platform. DLC, and in general making the expansion of that world as seamless as possible, is one of our goals.

But at the risk of going around in circles, folks really should see this before hand so we're all comparing and talking apples to apples.

My impression of the majority of the negative responses seem to be based on taking a description of a simple thing and without having seen it, proceed to blowing it out into proportions that play off of fears of the worst kind.

I'm not trying to stall - I really want feedback from players on this. But these reactions on the forums are something we've seen time and time again, for almost any feature or change throughout the dev cycle - ultimately, most of these were laid to rest once people saw how it really worked within the game context. That's why I'm suggesting the pause and to look at this within the game in a couple days.

For what it is worth - the game doesn't get incomplete quests. It's not like you are half-way through something and get a credit card entry screen to continue. The NPCs don't chase you around, and they are not salesmen with lines geared at 'pushing' any of the content at you. They are quest giver NPCs, and will act as you will expect any DA quest giver NPC.

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 15:49 (GMT) by Akka le Vil
That's the second part which is annoying : there is content that is automatically added to the game without us giving our consent. This is, very understandably, antagonizing many people.
I think you should give the choice to accept or refuse this download - honestly, I even have a hard time believing that installing something on a computer without asking was even considered, and even more, included in the actual game

You are. This is handled no different than any other game out there. For software, when you install something, or create an online account, or purchase something you should be presented with some sort of agreement that is appropriate for your locale. Like many other things folks may disagree and argue it is not done in a way that they personally would prefer it in, but it is there.

As for the general concept of getting content updates - we looked at the best examples we could find for deciding how we wanted to handle content updates for PC: Steam & MMOs. And tried to keep it in line with that.


As I've said before, I'm happy for us to adapt and change our approach - but that needs to be based on players actually using it if it is to be accurate.

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 18:40 (GMT) by TalarWolf
I'm not enthused about the npcs; even less about having additional stuff added without my knowing about it. If you read the ToS and the other legal type documents, by using EA's service you're agreeing to allow them to collect information about you, your playing habits, and a lot of other things.

I think you'll find this is common for any online service - have you ever looked at the 360 or PS3 account TOS? Random web email service? Other software that uses online features of some kind?

The good news with most games is that these are fairly blanket clauses and majority are actually not used for any given title. Having 1 common agreement to maintain across whatever languages all your past/present/future games support is much easier for any publisher to do, than trying to keep track of each one separately

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 18:40 (GMT) by TalarWolf
I'm still not sure whether I'm going to get the game or not; I've seen a few statements about having to be online when playing your dlc, and having to log in every 10 to 15 days to prove you aren't a pirate. It would be nice to have a faq about the different ways to get the dlc. If it is the same as the dlc for Fallout 3, you have to be online to play. If you were on pc, you could move files around and play offline, but that wasn't exactly supported. If I wanted to have to be online all the time I'm playing a game, I'd be playing an online game. If any of the content has to come through the EA downloader, it will make my decision much easier.

You don't need to be online to play DLC. We have our own DLC updater that is included with the game so you don't need to install anything separately, and don't use the EA Downloader - you'll only need that if you purchase DA:O through the EA Store.

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 18:43 (GMT) by Akka le Vil
I get what you mean by "not incomplete quests". But they still talk and offer a quest that you can't take unless you buy the DLC.
That's not "incomplete" in the "left in the middle of a chain quest" way, but that's still "incomplete" - they ARE present and they DO offer a quest that still REQUIRE something to be bought.

I get what you're saying, I just think we're actually seeing two ends of the same very very narrow spectrum.

These NPCs don't show up to advertise or tease content coming months from now. They are there once the DLC is available.

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 18:43 (GMT) by Akka le Vil
I understand your point, but it strikes me as quite weird.
DA:O was clamored (and applauded !) as being a pure single-player game in a somewhat "old school" way (thank you for this by the way, I was sooo wishing for such a kind of game !), as in "spiritual successor of the good RPG of old".
Following this, using MMO methods, which exist on a completely different server-based multiplayer architecture, feels completely at odd with what DAO looks like.

DAO is definitely that - and for us the spiritual successor element means some very specific things, mostly around story, characters, tactical party based combat, etc. It doesn't mean we'll be delivering it on 5.25" floppy discs, nor ignoring where PC gaming and technology is at today or tomorrow.

DAO has a huge social and community element to it, and a task of seamlessly being able to expand that world. The fact that didn't exist with old school rpgs is hardly a reason to not evolve.

And wanting to evolve, why would we not look at the most widely used and successful examples we could find?

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 18:43 (GMT) by Akka le Vil
I understand the MMO methods used for MMO. I even spent four years and a half of on WoW, so I'm not that allergic to the system
But the MMO methods used for single-player is really not going to compute for me. MMO have to enforce patching, because everyone is playing the same game on the same servers, and you can't really have people with different versions playing together.
But that's purely an exception for a specific requirement. I do not want (and I'm sure I'm far to be the only one on this issue) to have a program that automatically download and update without asking my consent each time. Sometimes I want the updates (most patches - not all, some patches actually ruin the game, like the 1.3 for Empire : Total War), and sometimes I don't want them (like the DLC NPC we're talking about - if I don't plan to buy the DLC myself, I certainly do NOT want the game to download the hooks and baits for them).
I stay away from Steam precisely BECAUSE of their automated updates.
And honestly, I'm not thrilled at all hearing that Steam & MMO are the way you're planning to go when it comes to updates.

We shouldn't confuse the content with the method of delivery. Bad patches can happen regardless of the method.

As for doing content updates like that in general - given the success (and market leadership) of those services on PC, I think there are a few million players that would disagree. That doesn't mean we should simply be content to point our finger there and say 'they do it' - as I mentioned before, I fully intend to adapt what we do based on our player's feedback. But as our starting point, I'm very pleased if we are able to be at, or close to par.

Having said that, we did not presume everyone would want this. We've made sure there are instructions provided for how to disable this if you want. And post launch, we will continue to improve it based on feedback.

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 18:43 (GMT) by Akka le Vil
Well, the point here is that many of us precisely do NOT want to use this approach.
The main point, as you surely have read it countless time in the thread, is that a NPC being hooks for quest you have to pay for, is perceived as a very rude and unwelcomed intrusion of marketing/salesmen - the fact that they speak in-character is not the point, the point is that we ("we" as in "those who protest" of course) would like for them to simply not appear unless we have bought and downloaded the content they are related to.

I understand that, my point is that I don't believe that is the majority's view - especially after trying it. I think what we're offering as a way to expand the game without you ever having to leave it is something a lot of our players will appreciate.

Again, not for everyone perhaps. But I happen to believe that there are more people annoyed by having to take extra steps, go and fish on the internet for something, create a dozen other accounts for the priveledge of downloading from other sites, figure out what version of what they need, and generally spend more time trying to get content than playing it - than there are folks who are not bothered by (or prefer) that.

I fully accept that is a very non-old school way of doing things too But even in those cases, there will hopefully always be options for those folks too. And in any case, everything we're talking about is extra - anyone is more than able to get their money's worth from playing the main game and simply getting rid of any of this.

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 18:52 (GMT) by Pr1m4x

Its amazing how people think that the slap on the face is an npc in the game, and everyone is just so much of a freaking fan boy that they don't realize how screwed up it is, that their selling additional content when it should be included in the original pack. You dont sell DLCs on day one to "give players more content and make them happy" you do that *** to rip people off, and its as simple as that. I dont mind paying for 10 DLCs, but doing it on release day? Its just an insult to any normal person's intelligence. I wont be "buying" the game for this reason alone. That is all im saying...

If you actually care to hear about it - there are plenty of posts on social (social.bioware.com) and these old forums (daforums.bioware.com) made by us to clearly explain why this was done.

Edited By Fernando Melo on 10/31/09 19:52

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 23:15 (GMT) by DLC On The Disc

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 15:05 (GMT) by Fernando Melo
<snip>
These are the main quest givers for their respective DLC, first and foremost. Regardless of how you get the DLC (or not), you will still be encountering Felix to begin your quest for Shale, or Levi to start the Warden's Keep quest for example - that *is* their role.
<snip>

I understand that you have to toe the company line, and that means denying every claim that these are intrusive advertisements for DLC, but you and I both know that they are.

I don't need to quote a company line to disagree - these are neither intrusive, nor advertisements. If you actually read my original post you'd see that as well. And I would argue that until you've played the game and talked to one of these NPCs, that you are claiming something you do not know of.

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 23:15 (GMT) by DLC On The Disc
If these NPCs were important to the basic DAO experience, they would be included in the shipped game and/or any patches without starting a questline for the DLC, maybe delivering some interesting dialogue without hinting at a quest before purchasing said DLC.

If these NPCs were not important to the basic DAO experience, then there would be no reason to include them in the shipped game and/or patches, and to only add them after the player purchases the DLC.

You can put a pig in a dress, but at the end of the day it's still a pig. These are still pitchmen, and I'm not happy about them being in the game.

Again, you've not really read what I posted last time. These are not part of the basic DAO experience, none of the DLC is. You get a complete game without ever touching any of the DLC.

These are quest givers, and work the same, and have the same importance as any other quest giver in DAO once they come in.

Quote: Posted 10/31/09 23:15 (GMT) by DLC On The Disc
So on Tuesday, when I buy my new copy of DAO, I'll pick up an MS points card, I'll put the disc in my 360, and I'll purchase the Warden's Keep, simply because I don't want salesmen in my game unless I can pay them in DAO currency. From then on, I'll make sure to keep my 360 off of LIVE whenever I'm playing DAO. Sure, it'll take an extra bit of work, but it'll be worth it to play the game the way I want to: without intrusive advertisement.

I'll buy DLC on my schedule, not yours. If that means playing an outdated version of DAO then so be it.

I appreciate you picking up WK, I hope you enjoy it and let us know what you think.

I've never argued for anyone to buy DLC on any schedule but theirs. If anything i've always encouraged folks to sit it out and read the reviews and forum posts if they are at all unsure. That is not what doing any of this is about.

And as above - if you re-read my original post, you'll notice that you'll still encounter these NPCs because they are the starting point for these quests, not salesmen for it.

Quote: Posted 11/01/09 00:18 (GMT) by Kasrkin
DLC available from the startup menu in the game makes sense.

Having NPC's in the game, hawking Downloadable Content for *Real Money* seems crass to me. Just not in the spirit of an RPG.

I agree. And that's why that is not what they do. You'll not find these NPCs ever quote you a price, or 'push' any of the content on you, or promote you special offers, or anything of that sort.

Quote: Posted 11/01/09 01:22 (GMT) by Akka le Vil
The problem isn't being advertised for things that won't come before monthes, the problem is being advertised at all

I hear you, and I understand why 'in principle' that puts some folks off - I too, do not want in-game ads. What I'm trying to get at is that I do not believe the way we've done it is advertising something in the way you believe it is - hence, it should be seen first.

Quote: Posted 11/01/09 01:22 (GMT) by Akka le Vil
I can undersand your point of view, but what I can't understand is that, as you know that it can displease lots of people, and you even know this enough to provide instructions to disable this...
<snip>
Seems the most obvious solution to me. Why the forceful approach ?
<snip>
though I understand what you're trying to achieve, I don't see why it couldn't be handled with a simple DLC tab in the option menu, that would have worked just as well and wouldn't have caused all this argument.

I never said it would displease lots of people, I said that it may not be for everyone - same as some of the social things we're doing, or achievements, or day 1 dlc, or pick any number of 'up in arms' topics we've talked about over the years that we recognized may not be for everyone but did anyway because we believed was right for the game.

If anything, I've said that I believe the majority will be pleased, otherwise we wouldn't have gone the way we did for any of those things.

As for it being obvious to offer up a solution - or implying that by not doing so we've opted for a forceful approach - not so, and given how open we've been about all this that's a bit of a stretch.

Like many other discussions so far, it would have been much simpler to ignore the forums or say 'deal with it' - in the end, it probably would work out just the same. That doesn't make it right, nor it is how we do things.

In the time available, we added options for what we believed people would want. And a commitment to evolve things over time for those that we did not, or opted to get player feedback on after launch. If we were second-guessing all our decisions on DAO it would be another 5 years in the making.

Quote: Posted 11/01/09 12:29 (GMT) by aries1001
But the problem for some of us is still this: (as I understand it)

DLC will be delivered onto our computers, without our consent, via the DA downloader. And then a quest giver for the DLC will show up in the game world with an regular quest icon (the exclamation mark!)above their head; when we speak to him, we'd learned, not up front, but later that 'to go on this ride, you'd need to pay XX amount of US dollars'.

You will have consented to it as part of the agreements when installing the game etc. And no NPC will ask you to pay xx of real world money, they are not salespeople.

But in these specific cases, given their DLC nature, to travel to that area you will need to have downloaded it - so there is an option to go and do that if you have not done so up to that point. That's it.

Whether the content download is then paid or free is irrelevant, and the quest giver doesn't care nor ever reflect that.

Quote: Posted 11/01/09 12:29 (GMT) by aries1001
To me, this sound much like, and functions much like a commercial on tv, enticing you, luring you in - with the hope that you'd buy the -ehm- product, which in this case is,- the dlc.

Perhaps, without seeing it. If it matters, I can say that we've spent a great deal of time making sure it was not the case - again, I don't know how else to try and describe that here in text. Once you talk to one of these then let us know if you still feel that way.

Quote: Posted 11/01/09 12:29 (GMT) by aries1001
As for being online to play the game, DA: Origins, I don't think you have to to be? - especially since Derek French in a post clearly stated this. I don't think you'd have to be online to play the DLC as well? The DLC, I'd guess, would just be downloaded onto your computer (once you've accepted it); you can then play it.

Correct. You only need to go online to download the DLC. Afterwards you can be offline.